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Deep Pencil - the musings of Morgan Bell

 
If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it did it really make a sound? If i post a blog and nobody reads it was there really any point? You have entered the random thinking space of Morgan Bell . . . These are my musings . . . things about my life written off the top of my head . . . written in an informal disjointed style almost completely devoid of punctuation, this is where i flesh out writing ideas, discuss my life, and generally be self indulgent . . . it is also the bargain bin for articles which do not fit in with the film or arts themes of my other blogs . . . so have a wander around my mind, have a laugh, have a think, be nice, and humour me!

Pastor Tony Alamo: Consent is Puberty

May 4th 2009 15:25
Its crazy Pastor time of the month again here at Deep Pencil.

This time we have Evangelist Pastor Tony Alamo and the claim that "consent is puberty".

Alamo gained media attention in September 2008 when USA Federal Agents raided his southwestern Arkansas compound (the Fouke headquarters of Tony Alamo Christian Ministries) and placed six girls into state custody. The 74 year old was accused by former church members of abusing young girls and running an organization in which girls who just reached puberty can marry. His ministry was accused of child abuse, sexual abuse and polygamy.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups, describes the ministry as a cult. Alamo's church rails against homosexuals, Roman Catholics and the government.

Comments Alamo made to the media at the time of the raid:

"In the Bible it happened. But girls today, I don't marry 'em if they want to at 14-15 years old,"

"We won't do it, even though I believe it's OK."

"We don't go into pornography; nobody in the church is into that,"

"Where do these allegations stem from? The anti-Christ government. The Catholics don't like me because I have cut their congregation in half. They hate true Christianity."

Pastor Tony Alamo
Really Long Link


In October 2008, Alamo's former followers testified in court during a preliminary hearing that Alamo had practiced polygamy and had taken a nine year old girl as a wife. He remains jailed while awaiting trial for charges of taking minor girls across state lines for sex.

flowergirl from BestWeddingDresses.net



So what does Alamo supporters have to say in response to all the media scrutiny over his comments?

A statement from his website:

The newspapers keep printing and the news media keeps broadcasting that Pastor Alamo "has maintained that 'consent is puberty,'" that the age of consent to have sex is at puberty.

Pastor Alamo NEVER said that. What he said was that the age of consent TO BE MARRIED should be at puberty, and that young women should be allowed to marry at puberty rather than committing fornication, which will send their souls to hell. He said he does not believe the majority of young women are anywhere near being ready to marry, but that marriage would be preferable to committing the sin of fornication and then murder by abortion, which, again, will send their souls to hell for eternity.

Really Long Link


Puberty is consent for marriage. Not sex. Just marriage.

Not "the age of consent". Just consent.

A woman's developing body is giving consent by simply existing.


Other strange facts about Pastor Tony Alamo:

Alamo claims to be unique among Christian preachers because he was born a Jew and had a "supernatural experience" through which he became a born-again Christian.

When his wife died of cancer, Alamo claimed that she would be resurrected and kept her body on display for six months while their followers prayed. It would be 16 years before her body was returned to her family.

As for former followers making the allegations, Alamo said, "I've kicked a lot of people out of the church, and they'll say anything to get back at me."

Really Long Link




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Comments
85 Comments. [ Add A Comment ]

Comment by Mau-Medellin

May 4th 2009 15:40
Oh my goodness... as the saying goes, where there's a crack in the woodwork, there's a crazy David waiting to come out of it!

Mau-Medellin

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 4th 2009 15:45
hi Mau,
maybe they are friends?
ive noticed David doesnt really understand what "consent" means either . . .
i dont know why anyone would let their kids anywhere near someone like Pastor Alamo

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 4th 2009 16:03
hi Mau,
yes i did see that and quite frankly i was shocked too, i am also glad Whitney removed his vulgar remarks about pedophilia . . . i just dont know what they are teaching in the seminary these days

Comment by Jason King

May 4th 2009 21:41
Eeeewwwwwww - what a freak!!
I am worried that you keep finding these crazies Morgan!

Comment by Lola Tahlulah

May 4th 2009 22:08
Altogether disturbing stuff. I remember reading recently about a young girl in Saudi Arabia who was married to a man at age 8. Her father had given her to the man as payment for a debt.

Sadly the courts refused to annul the marriage as it was considered a legally binding transaction. Terrible and terrifying and altogether astounding that in this world there are still those so openly in favor of exploiting a child for religious or personal reasons.

I would like to say however in regard to your above conversation with Mau-Medellin, there is a factual error. I too read the pubic hair comments left by David, and while I agree that he says reprehensible things from time to time, I know he did not say that he prefers the look of a clean shaven woman. I am all about fairness and so I just want to set the record straight that David in fact was speaking against Brazilian waxing BECAUSE it makes women look like little girls. His exact sentiment was that he prefers natural looking women and he was criticizing men who prefer the shaved look, precisely because it appeals to their pedophillic nature.

I do not claim to agree with David's sentiments. I only wish to correct the record as regardless of the amount of distaste one has for the man, it is very uncouth to twist his words, particularly when there is plenty of open ammunition already available.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 5th 2009 00:12
hi Jason,
i think its gotten to the stage where everyone i know just tells me about crazies because they know i like blogging about them!
why a 74yo man would want a 9yo wife i guess we will never know



hi Lola,

David in fact was speaking against Brazilian waxing BECAUSE it makes women look like little girls. His exact sentiment was that he prefers natural looking women and he was criticizing men who prefer the shaved look, precisely because it appeals to their pedophillic nature.

yes you are quite correct, i thought that was what Mau was saying but i may have misinterpretted . . . David was saying women who get brazilian waxes are responsible for men becoming pedophiles . . . that is what i found shocking and vulgar

I remember reading recently about a young girl in Saudi Arabia who was married to a man at age 8. Her father had given her to the man as payment for a debt.

that is very sad . . . when will people realise women are not property?

thanks for the comment

Comment by Lola Tahlulah

May 5th 2009 00:38
Hi Morgan,

Thanks for clearing that up. I apologize if it came off as defensive. I can understand your shock at the implication that women are responsible for grotesque behavior in males based on their grooming habits. I suppose I should have addressed my comment more to Mau, who is clearly saying something different.

Regarding the Saudi Arabia case, the judge has decreed that when the child turns 12 she will legally be allowed to ask for a divorce. How progressive! I tend to think that men who want to marry or possess girls at that young age do so more for the feeling of control over a subservient human being than for sexual gratification.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 5th 2009 01:01
hi Lola,

thats ok, you are welcome to voice your opinions . . . im only set to "Verify Comments" to filter out the filth and personal attacks of one person: David

i thought it was a bit rich for him to shift the blame for pedophilia from pedophiles themselves to (as you say) womens grooming habits . . . its also completely ignorant to think that pedophiles are just created out of thin air due to some perceived mistreatment or bad influences . . . and then he had the nerve to call Whitneys post offensive, the irony

i know different countries have different cultures but i would really like to see a worldwide ban on child marriages

puberty is a long process, and theres usually a big gap of time between when a girl first starts menstruating and when she properly develops adequate hips and breasts for child bearing and nursing . . . i find it disturbing that anyone would validate sexually assaulting a pre-teen or early teen girl by calling it a marriage and claiming god prefers it that way . . . no i think god would prefer it if you stopped touching the pubescent altogether

thanks for the info on the Saudi case . . . i think you are right about these "relationships" being more about control

Comment by Mau-Medellin

May 5th 2009 01:11
Hi Lola,

English is my second language, so while I believe I have a fairly sound understanding, my writting can at times be a little Hit & Miss... Morgan's understanding of my inferend meaning was correct.

Mau-Medellin

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 5th 2009 01:43
hi Mau,
thanks for clearing that up . . . double negatives can be slippery little suckers!

Comment by Norm

May 5th 2009 05:12
I'm quite looking forward to hell.
Do you think I've done enough?
It's just these modern selection processes.
I mean, first they put you into groups.
Where you have to prove your lack of worth.
Then they send you away, for what seems an after-lifetime.
I just hope I don't end up in "the other place".
If it's anything like the before-life, it won't be much to remember.


Comment by Morgan Bell

May 5th 2009 05:17
hi Norm,
this is hell, and im the devil . . .
i was just talking about you, was your ear burning?

Comment by samaritan

May 5th 2009 05:30
It's easy to kind of show what one pastor does, and hold it up as an example of how terrible Christians can be. (And I don't think that's what you're doing, Morgan. Well I hope not.) But if you looked at any group of people, you would find people who do terrible things. I'm sure if you looked at donut store owners enough, you would find shocking cases of things they have done. But nobody ever does that, because they're not particularly interested in showing how donut store owners do terrible things.

I think this is a case when someone has some pretty awful ideas about marrying young girls. And because they're in a position of power and authority, they have been able to use that to get other people to consent to their own desires. But it's not a matter of this person did this because they were a Christian or a pastor. This person did this because they're not a good person. If they were a donut store owner, they'd be doing the same thing, only perhaps not in such a big way, because they wouldn't have the trust of so many people.

In relation to the David comment, I'm sorry, Mau, but from your comment it does look like you were saying that David said something that apparently he didn't. Even looking back, after reading Lola's comments, it still looks like that. I guess it's lucky that Lola read it and could clear it up. Otherwise, many people who read that would have thought David said something which he didn't actually say.

I guess there's a lesson to be learnt in that about making sure that what you say doesn't give people any false impressions about people. And perhaps also a lesson about how we need to make sure we read things in the way they were intended to be read.

Samaritan

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 5th 2009 06:10
hi Samaritan,

no i certainly do not think Pastor Tony Alamo represents all christians, and i think it is a tribute to the other christians in his ministry that came forward and reported him to the authorities . . . im sure their first-hand testimonies in court will lead to Alamo getting the punishment he deserves

i do however think that people in positions of authority (and not just christian Pastors, although they do fit the type, but teachers, parents, doctors, police, army personnel) are often found abusing the power they have been entrusted with . . . i think we hear stories about specific people from all these "trust positions" that routinely take advantage of young people, so it is best to never allow someone absolute power over a minor

it certainly does not mean every father, or boss, or scout leader, or footy couch is a problem . . . just the same with Pastors . . . the bad apples are always the anomolies, i think everyone knows that, but the position of authority gives them a potentially huge influence over the people whom they are supposed to have a duty of care for . . . a bad apple in any position of power, regardless of religion, is always a dangerous thing

i actually find Pastor Alamos general views on women to be just as disgusting as his alleged behaviour, and i think this story also serves as a good warning for people about the dangers of malevolent bible interpretations when they fall into the wrong hands

as for David, here is exactly what he said:

You know what really amazes me about women who get waxed?

They don't realise they're promoting paedophilia.

Oh they'll all say it's all in the name of hygeine. But what real mother who has ever powdered her daughter would ever consent to looking like a baby in front of a man?

I know this is a bit of a sick comment, but if a woman is waxed or lasered, I can't even get a hardon. I keep thinking about how evil paedophiles are.

another malevolent sexist, in my opinion

i knew Mau had commented the same thread so i presumed he had read and understood Davids comment and simply expressed himself awkwardly with a few typos

the main thing i got from Lolas comment was that she found Davids remarks distasteful and reprehensible, which i completely agree with, and i stand by my comment that stated "i am also glad Whitney removed his vulgar remarks about pedophilia"

thanks for your comment, Samaritan, it was good to tease out a few of these issues in discussion



Comment by Mau-Medellin

May 5th 2009 06:50
I'm deeply saddened by those of you who have been offended by my comments, and the meaning that you have interpreted from them... This was not my mission; rather I was just pointing out what David had said.

I know for some of you, reading words, and making up the message to suit is part in parcel with your daily life, however, don't crucify me for saying the truth.

Mau-Medellin

Comment by Lola Tahlulah

May 5th 2009 09:45
Mau,

I feel that your defensiveness is a little misplaced, as my understanding is that the above commentary is based on your wording. If you write something in such a way that makes the meaning unclear, it is not the fault of the reader for being unable to decipher your intent.

When I return to the comment in question, I repeatedly get the same message. I understand that you contend this was not your meaning, and I must accept that at face value. I do not know you, and hence must take your clarification to be sincere. I accuse you of nothing, and already apologized for my incorrect interpretation of your words.

Were I to have left well enough alone however, I believe that others happening upon this post would extract the same meaning from your comment as I originally did.

Did you see David over on Whitney's blog, talking about having sex with women who have had Brazilian waxes because it makes them more like children... he actually said he prefers nt!!!!!!!!

When I compare this statement with the clarification provided above by Morgan, I still think it looks like you are saying that David prefers women with a Brazilian wax due to their childlike appearance. Especially when you say that a. talking about having sex with women who have had Brazilian waxes because it makes them look like children...and b. he actually said he prefers nt (I read nt as "it") it is little wonder why myself and others misinterpreted your remarks.

This comment is meant to clarify my meaning, I cannot speak for Samaritan. While you state that you are saddened by the reaction you received, please keep in mind that I am equally saddened by your retort of

I know for some of you, reading words, and making up the message to suit is part in parcel with your daily life, however, don't crucify me for saying the truth.

Crucify is a strong word to use, and your accusation toward those of us with an honest misunderstanding of your choice of words as those who spend our daily lives making up messages to suit our own interests is stronger still. I resent that statement, as I've already conceded the point in a previous comment.

All of that said, I apologize to Morgan for my off topic remarks.

Comment by Mau-Medellin

May 5th 2009 10:10
I've tried to explain myself here, and again I am sorry if you cannot comprehend what I have said. If you would like to continue this discussion in my native tongue, espaniol, then by chance we may be able to understand each other.

I do not wish to just sit here and sight a barrage of negative comments where my person has done nothing wrong to yours.

Mau-Medellin.

Comment by Mau-Medellin

May 5th 2009 10:16
Did you see David over on Whitney's blog, talking about having sex with women who have had Brazilian waxes because it makes them more like children... he actually said he prefers nt!!!!!!!!

Sorry for my typo, it is just sarcasm remark. Like saying, I love taxes, not!!!!!!!!

Mau-Medellin

Comment by Lola Tahlulah

May 5th 2009 10:38
I don't know if it is possible for me to be any more clear in my acceptance of your explanation, so I'll leave it be.

I shall leave you with this message, en Español.

Siento mucho oír que tú estás triste sobre cómo las cosas han salido.

I gave it the old college try, anyway. And in Latin...Mea Culpa.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 5th 2009 10:39
ok guys,
it has obviously been a misunderstanding
i have clarified
Mau has clarified
Lola has acknowledged the clarification and apologised for coming off defensive
sounds like we are having a bit of a language barrier
anyway, the original comment by David has been reproduced above to prevent any further confusion
lets just move on

Comment by Cheryl J

May 5th 2009 11:05
This is just disgusting. Anyone who is in a position of power that makes comments regarding the abuse of children - and make no mistake, that's what this consent comment is - deserves to be hung, drawn and quartered.

I cannot believe that man displayed his wife for 16 years as well. Good grief!

Comment by Mau-Medellin

May 5th 2009 11:42
Seamos amigos

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 5th 2009 11:49
hi Cheryl,
they were some pretty shocking comments hey!
he seems like a disturbed individual, even the anti-Catholic statements, his whole attitude is pretty poor
im glad members of his own ministry dobbed him in, glad some people have a conscience when it comes to child welfare
thanks for your comment

Comment by RubySoho

May 5th 2009 13:17
I am all about fairness and so I just want to set the record straight that David in fact was speaking against Brazilian waxing BECAUSE it makes women look like little girls. His exact sentiment was that he prefers natural looking women and he was criticizing men who prefer the shaved look, precisely because it appeals to their pedophillic nature.

Actually no, what David was criticisng was WOMEN who waxed their genitals because and i quote "they're promoting pedophilia"

Yeah, women promote pedophilia. Just like they promote rape by wearing mini skirts and drinking alcohol. Once again, women are blamed for men's shortcomings. David's words don't need to be twisted. They are insulting enough as they stand.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 5th 2009 14:02
hi Ruby,

i agree, David is really irresponsible in propagating hate against women, and suggesting women are to blame for societys ills

pubic hair is hardly a defining quality of an adult woman, i wonder if her would take such issue with women shaving their armpits or legs, or blame breast cancer victims for having mastectomies because they look too boyish?

You're a fraud, baby. A total fraud. You're the mouthpiece of all women who cry out, It's a man's world. Let's bring it down. Let's have a national close legs day. Well guess what little Miss Atheist. There are women on Orble who love their husbands and love their children and have lives. Not every woman on Orble is going to agree with you. They'll see you as the narcissistic bitch you are. THey'll just sit back and go. How self-centred is this woman. She won't have kids. She won't meet a man.

another David quote addressed to me

how can anyone doubt this guy is sexist and sexually hostile?

are women just a stack of body parts with no will of their own whose sole purpose is to be verbally or physically molested by any man who finds them attractive?

the difference between David and Tony Alamo? not much!

if you have a vagina it is your duty to submit to a mans sexual whims, regardless of whether you want to or not . . . your role is to produce children and make yourself available to penis . . . David thinks its ok to sexually vilify someone half his age because his sexual advances were rejected . . . hes shames and bullies because he feels entitled to any womans body he chooses, yet the women have no choice, its all the same shit

Comment by RubySoho

May 5th 2009 21:13
Um, yep. That pretty much sums up David.

Comment by D. Armenta

May 5th 2009 23:10
In the interest of fairness:

They don't realise they're promoting paedophilia.

David's never been known for his tact, hahahaha!!! HOWEVER--in this case, I think you misinterpreted his words, Ruby. Otherwise he'd have stated that they *were* promoting pedophilia.

Why bother with David now, anyway? His IP's been banned, from what I hear. I think that's a damned shame. I repeat what I said somewhere here before: with freedom of speech you have to take the good with the bad.

The "delete comments" option has always been there, at least since I arrived here several years ago. Doesn't that pretty much solve any troll problems?

I don't agree with a lot of what David says, or Damo, or a lot of people here--but I don't write them off because their opinion is different from my own. Over the years, from discussions with them and reading their posts, I have come to respect them as well as others I don't share the same views with. We just agree to disagree.

I don't hold grudges, either. If I had, I'd be the first one trashing David; we've had our dust-ups, especially when I first got here. David comes on to a lot of women here. A simple and direct "not interested" does the trick.He gets over it quickly and talks to you like a normal person after that.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that this whole banning thing is not sitting well with me. It seems so..arbitrary for a free -world blog.

Sorry, Morgan--didn't mean to go off-topic.


Comment by Morgan Bell

May 6th 2009 04:38
hi D,

thanks for stopping in, im just going to pick on a couple of little things youve said there

Otherwise he'd have stated that they *were* promoting pedophilia.

"they're" = "they are", therefore:

They don't realise they ARE promoting paedophilia.

"were" or "are", same message when i read it

His IP's been banned, from what I hear

well ive only just logged in today but he was still going at it hammer and tongs last night, he goes to my profile and follows my comments and leaves anti-Morgan ravings anonymously everywhere he goes, it is constant and frequent and it is tiring . . . Norm has had to set his blog to "Verify" to avoid the relentless personal attacks, as have i, as has Cheryl, and its always sexually loaded

David isnt even putting forth any opinions any more, just a string of insults towards me, Norm, Ruby, Jon, MNG, Spike, Chris Champion, PoMo, etc

as for the banning, David got himself banned by breaching Terms & Conditions, he has been banned from four different accounts now, it is a result of his own behaviour yet noone seems to acknowledge this

he should take some responsibility for his own actions and try acting his age and stop being such a big cry baby

i have been relentlessly hounded by David for a months now, savaged for my Asexuality, and become the subject of his sexually violent fantasies . . . its not a case of being tactless, its a case of being a malicious bully trying to drive other writers off the site

i do appreciate your opinions on the matter but i just cant agree with them, i think you have a very romanticised idea of what David used to be like


Comment by Janet Collins

May 6th 2009 05:52
I too, like Jason, wonder where you get all these crazy Pastor stories from.

Pretty disgraceful really and the story in Saudi? I read about that one too. Disgusting.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 6th 2009 06:09
hi Janet,
i have a big network of friends who give me tips for interesting stories or posts links or comments about things like this on facebook . . . ive got my finger on the pulse!

Comment by D. Armenta

May 6th 2009 14:32
With all respect, Morgan: My emphasis was on "They don't realize", not the contraction of "they are/were".

as for the banning, David got himself banned by breaching Terms & Conditions, he has been banned from four different accounts now, it is a result of his own behaviour yet noone seems to acknowledge this.

What specifically was breached, that others here have not breached themselves?

I do appreciate your opinions on the matter but i just cant agree with them, i think you have a very romanticised idea of what David used to be like

What?! HAHAhahahahaha!! Look:
Comment on my post "What's considered rude in your area that visitors should know about?"

D. Armenta ...

It's actually rude over here not to give me a blow job before speaking to me ... and you're allowed to grip me by the shoulders while you're doing it ... It's an old Aussie custom that dates back to antiquity ... relating to not speaking with your mouth full ...

David ...

--and my reply:
Oh, sorry David! I thought I had done before..nope, was flossing my teeth. Honest mistake.
Post: Mar. 21, 2007

No, I never had any romanticized idea of what David was like. I got the full David right at the start. The difference between me and a fair amount of others is I never took offense. Why should I? To me, a comment like that is a perfect straight line !

I don't think you're being fair. If you check This post of mine, you'll see a quite different attitude toward David, from you and the others here who have now added him to the shit list. If you read all of the comments, you will see that many people took offense at first but changed their minds later, usually after they read his posts.

Apologies again for the long comment, but I'd rather address this here than in a post of my own.

Whatever happened to *this* attitude?
This is a blogging site for Chrissakes! I want to be confronted, offended and amused as well as informed and entertained. I am so sick of politically correct bullsh*t...and the fact that I asterisked that word says it all.

Everyone is free to move on if they don't like a blogger or a post. I agree that there should be no personal attacks against anyone but it sounds like David was someone we need more of here.

Comment by D. Armenta

May 6th 2009 15:16
Ahhhh--I got so upset I addressed it in my own post anyway. Sorry to tie yours up, Morgan.

D. Armenta

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 6th 2009 15:21
hi D,

due to nobody wanting to define "offensive" in the Terms & Conditions, the details of how admin judge what is appropriate will remain a mystery only known to Jon

i have no idea who your last quote is from, but in regards to the David quote you have provided i wonder if you can see the difference between that example (clearly a playful remark) and the following statements also by David:

How's your virtual relationship going with Normie Smormie? Poor Norm. He used to be a good bloke. But Morgie Smorgie got into his head like Hannibal Lecter got into Dr Chilton's head. And stuffed it up completely. Now poor old Norm doesn't know if he should comment on my posts or not, out of fear of offending a woman he dreams of being with who is asexual. Norm. Get a grip man. Wake up to yourself man. This woman is poison.

And Jon is such a dickhead, he agrees with her. I've never met Jon. I don't want to. He's a pathetic bastard who doesn't even deserve the term male.

Jon is as cuntsruck as Norm. I mean I like a good fuck as much as the next man. But please can it be a real fuck? At least Teresa puts out. And Teresa is a great fuck. She loves sex. She doesn't sit on Orble all day going I'm asexual Normie Smormie. She puts out. I often think that's the thing that tipped Morgan over the edge. All this talk abou asexuality, when all she needs in life is a good fuck.

My speculation is she's been totally damaged by something that occurred in her life and just can't get to the point of admitting it or discussing it, so she's put her real self under the carpet and created this false identity for herself. She wants a good fuck as much as the next woman. If Ed had a dick, she'd let him fuck her.

Jon can you just go and slip Morgan a length? If you have a dick that is.

Norm get your head out of your arse man, and chase a decent woman who puts out.

Do you intend to meet Morgan or is this all a virtual fantasy to you? Do you wank off over her? What a waste of sperm. Do you intend to sit on the net for the next three years flirting with Morgan and whacking off over her? Cos that's the impression I'm getting.

Run for the hills man. Before you become a pansy who likes footy. Hang around the gay community Pat? You'll eventually butt fuck Ed out of sympathy for Morgan or in some futile attempt to impress her.

What would an asexual know about sexual advances anyway. Doesn't she reject them all to feel oh-so special?

As to Norm. He can wank off all he likes over his virtual affair with you. I've met Norm. I knew he wasn't into reality. You're just his rebound cos Brooke Wolfgobbler left him due to his unreality.

But since she's a leg-closer and prick-teaser and control-freak from wayback, it doesn't matter what her pubes look like to me.

i could go on but really whats the point, im sure you can see the difference in tone, theres nothing good-natured or playful about it, its straight out vicious

i understand you probably havent seen much of what hes been saying lately, and much of his ranting has now been removed as is was polluting the whole network, but take my word for it, this kind of raw hostility was appearing on nearly every post i visited

even Cibbuano has had to delete his comments from his film blog because David is just so out of control, he does it on Bryns blog and Janets blog and Samaritans blog and Jon removes it

if he has ever spoken to you or about you like that i would be highly surprised if you found it as funny or endearing

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 6th 2009 16:11
hi D,

look i treat people how they treat me and David treats me like shit, he is a petulant 50yo child who stalks and harasses me across the network and is gratingly comprehensive in his method

im well aware of the comments on your Dark Knight post, a time when many of us had never had any exposure to David and were simply curious as to who this person was that the older users kept referring to

David started off being nice to me because he thinks Orble is a dating site and was trying to pick me up, he gave me his phone number and was flattering my writing and my looks, but when i didnt want to ring him and he realised his feelings of lust/love were not reciprocated he turned really nasty and tried to intimidate me into leaving the site because he felt embarrassed that i rejected him

i would really like to know what you think of the above remarks and how you would react if your sexuality was brought into question and used to degrade you?

i would really like to know if those kind of comments are in line with the version of David you regard so fondly?

i dont think im being unfair at all

Comment by the world of gaye

May 6th 2009 23:39
Whatever happened to people just going to church with thier families, why the need to jion these insane cults? I just don't get it. But from what I can tell these groups of people have nothing to do with religion and everything with finding a way to get away with criminal behaviour. Put anything under the "religion banner" and society seems to turn a blind eye. Most of the recruits to these insane sects must either be missing a few brain cells or just sicko's looking for somewhere to fit in.

Comment by samaritan

May 7th 2009 00:33
Morgan,

I don't think anyone would deny that those comments are offensive. They were obviously designed to be offensive. And I certainly wouldn't like it if those comments were directed against me.

But there are also lots of comments about David out there. A quick look at the comments on this post will show quite a few of them. Saying there's not much difference between David and Tony Alamo is not a playful remark.

Now I can't do a cut and paste to show all the comments about him, because I don't keep details of those kind of things. Not that I would do that anyway. I don't think he would appreciate seeing a whole heap of insults directed towards him on the one page - not that it matters, as he seems to have disappeared. And I don't think it's a particularly nice thing to do to cut and paste old comments in order to prove a point. A bit like going around with a tape recorder and playing what people said back to them.

Anyway, the point is not whether David is offensive. I think most people would agree that he can be. And nobody would ever expect you to like his comments. But should he be banned for saying offensive things, when offensive things are said against him?

I don't know the whole history. I've only been back on Orble for a short while. But maybe you should also ask yourself why he attacks you so viciously, when his remarks to other people seem to be generally playful?

Samaritan

Comment by Cheryl J

May 7th 2009 00:53
Just to set the record straight, the comment D. Armenta used was mine. I do love to be confronted, offended and amused and for a while the comments David made were just that; confronting and offensive in an amusing way like when he said he wanted to masturbate over the beauty of my mind when I wrote something that was funny. It gave me a giggle. That is the kind of thing I meant when I wrote my comment. Offensive in an amusing way, but...

...I have seen some of the comments he made on many blogs in this dogged pursuit of Morgan all over Orble. I don't think anyone would find it amusing when he called her a c**t over and over. When he said he wouldn't fuck her with someone else's dick. When every comment was so vicious and ridiculously over the top. That's offensive in a whole different way.

This is a person who raged against Piss-Christ as art (I don't much like the piece but that's just a personal preference) but then regaled us with comments about he and his lady friend enjoyed golden showers and talking about going down on her and not liking the taste of menstrual blood - which he seems to liken almost everything to. The fact is, he went from being offensive in a witty and humorous way to completely losing the plot and spitting venom totally unrelated to any post he was commenting on and making it generally unpleasant for the blog owners and their readers.

I have no idea why he has such an obvious hatred of Morgan or Norm or anyone else and that is all between them but he dragged it onto every blog he could. I think that was what got him banned.

I love a bit of amusingly offensive banter but it went from that to a vendetta which spilled over to many other people's blogs. It was unfortunate because because he used to have a sense of humour about it all but that was lost. It ended up being a series of long-winded incredibly cruel and nasty rants. Alt-ed was also guilty of the same things for which I think he got a right bollocking for and I think he was also banned for a while. I'm all for free speech but this did constitute serious harrassment.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 7th 2009 01:05
hi Gaye,
i dont know why people with young children join cults, and i dont know why women who are in cults and find themselves pregnant stay?
i guess its the brainwashing and conditioning, a desire to be loved and be part of a group?




hi Samaritan,

But maybe you should also ask yourself why he attacks you so viciously,

you know i have given it thought but in the end i dont think it is up to the victim to blame herself for being attacked, as far as i can see its a cyber crush gone wrong and huge amounts of jealousy towards other male users i interact with

And I don't think it's a particularly nice thing to do to cut and paste old comments in order to prove a point.

well D. gave a quote as an example, i dont see why im not entitled to quote in my response . . . also those comments arent old, they are all from the last couple of weeks . . . sorry you dont think its "nice" but what do you want me to do when my fairness over interpretting his words is scrutinised? might as well go straight to the source

also my remarks about David and Tony Alamo were not intended to be "playful", that is my honest opinion based on my observations of how he treats women . . . im not going to censor myself when he certainly doesnt


Comment by samaritan

May 7th 2009 01:58
Morgan, my comments about 'cutting' and 'pasting' not being nice weren't specifically directed to you. I was simply saying why I would not cut and paste. Obviously you're entited to use quotes in response if you want to. A lot of people seem to do the cut and paste thing here. It's just not something that I am comfortable with doing myself.

Samaritan

Comment by RubySoho

May 7th 2009 22:39
You know when I see my fellow females running to support that misogynist, I feel as ashamed as I'm ever likely to of being a woman.


Comment by RubySoho

May 8th 2009 00:38
The 50 year old Saudi man has agreed to divorce his underage wife.

I've written a blog on it here:

Really Long Link

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 8th 2009 12:25
hi Cheryl,

he went from being offensive in a witty and humorous way to completely losing the plot and spitting venom totally unrelated to any post he was commenting on and making it generally unpleasant for the blog owners and their readers.

it went from that to a vendetta which spilled over to many other people's blogs. It was unfortunate because because he used to have a sense of humour about it all but that was lost. It ended up being a series of long-winded incredibly cruel and nasty rants.

great summary, that is much the way i see the situation too




hi Samaritan,

in the blogging world people cut and paste quotes so that others can see the specific segment of a text their comments are referring to, i dont think anything could be nicer than clarity and accuracy, its simple referencing

if you dont like the content of the quotes i suggest you direct your disapproval at the person who wrote them: David




hi Ruby,

i will never understand how women can support misogyny . . .

its no wonder women and children are reluctant to report sexual harassment, domestic abuse, and sexual assault . . . to this day you will still have your character examined to determine whether you "asked for it"

Comment by samaritan

May 8th 2009 13:06
Ruby,

Just because you didn’t like David, doesn’t mean that nobody else is allowed to.

In terms of him being a misogynist, I didn’t actually see it too much. In fact, in what he said to me, most of his comments about women were to do with the Virgin Mary or the saints – who he had complete respect and admiration for. Kind of funny in a way, I, as a woman, pray to Jesus. He, as this big huge supposed misogynist, wanted me to pray to Mary. And I do realize that maybe the reason I didn’t see that misogynistic side too much is because I haven’t been back on Orble long.

But I have been back long enough to really value what he has to say. And not because he’s interesting or funny or gives Orble some life. But – and I know this is going to strike you as really, really odd – but just because I like him. I have spent more time talking to him than I have talking to the rest of the people at Orble combined. And call me strange or weird or whatever, but I found more pleasure in talking to him than I did in talking to anyone else at Orble. I could actually have a decent conversation with him – in a weird, kind of online way. And I do tend to like people more when they’re a bit more real. I’d rather talk to someone who’s completely offensive and rude and who is being real, than someone who is nice and pleasant and being fake. That’s just the way I am.

I completely understand why you and Morgan don’t like him. I’m certainly not here to try and convince you that he’s some wonderful guy who you should all adore. Feel free to dislike him. I’m going not to change your mind. But at the same time, don’t criticize me for liking and supporting someone who was never insulting or offensive towards me. He always treated me with respect. And he actually appreciated what I had to say and responded to it.

And if you all dislike me for this comment, well then you can all dislike me. I’d rather be disliked than turn my back on the one person on Orble who had the most time for me.

Samaritan

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 8th 2009 13:19
BLOG MODERATION NOTE

There have so far been four attempts by David to leave an antagonistic comment on this post.

Tuesday, 5 May 2009 5:10:04 PM
Tuesday, 5 May 2009 5:18:25 PM
Thursday, 7 May 2009 8:54:14 PM
Friday, 8 May 2009 10:45:47 PM

David, I have already told you your comments are no longer welcome on Deep Pencil. I will not verify your abusive comments. This blog has been set to "Verify Comments" for the sole purpose of ceasing all communications with you.

Please go away.

So much for the supposed IP ban.

Comment by RubySoho

May 8th 2009 14:16
Hi Samaritan,

I'm not telling you you can't like David. But I am telling you that your refusal to see his sexist attitude towards women makes me feel betrayed as a fellow woman.

You can love David all you want but any man who says things like "I know she does not like sex but I want to see someone fuck her anyway" and "how self centered is this woman? She won't have kids. She won't be with a man", is a misogynist with a fucked up attitude toward women.

And when you defend him, you make me feel ashamed. I'm not even going to go into the Virgin Mary issue. But ask yourself, is she actually representative of real women? Or is an ideal version of the Church would like all women to be?



Comment by Lola Tahlulah

May 8th 2009 18:39
I am surprised to see this conversation is still rolling right along. In my eyes this is a good thing, because it represents both sides of the issue of David.

I would just say this. As one who has been dealt the very real abuse of a male partner, I feel I come from a place of clarity. Here is my story in speedy form. I was engaged to be married to the nicest man on planet earth, until one day he decided that my face resembled a punching bag and began to use it accordingly. With some help from the local authorities I managed to get him out of my house. I was not weak. I did not stay and take it like many people. I handled it promptly. Two weeks after he moved out,he returned through a window and raped me.

I pressed charges and nothing came of it. I was told that it was merely a domestic dispute and that as we were former lovers it did not constitute rape. He roams the city freely and for a long time I would still see him around. When he saw me he hurled insults and laughed at me. I was forced to move in with a friend over a thousand miles away to escape him. I do not know if I can ever go home.

The reason I share this story is for perspective about what I am about to say. David while crude rude and insulting merely dealt blows to match those that were doled out toward him. Those that rail against him in this very post participated in abuse toward him. Do not deny it and do not act as the only victim. I LOATHE some of the things he said about you Morgan, but I was equally troubled by some things you said about him.

Innocence is a funny thing because one looses perspective in the heat of battle and history is written by the winner. It has been hotly contested here that alt_ed was the source of the abuse dealt to David, but I would counter that the comment section of many of ed's posts were a breeding ground of applause and laudatory congratulations for his efforts.

The taunting and escalating jabs sent David's way were directly relative to his increasingly offensive commentary. I watched the whole thing happen. It was a bit of tragic theater and I admittedly was somewhat fascinated with the manner in which things unraveled.

Are you an innocent party when you partake in the ridicule of someone by making light of a drinking problem? This is what you have done, Morgan. Are you innocent when you defend actions that make light of someone's divorce? Of course not. Can you truly defend your stance in support of Alt_ed's removal when you welcome him back with open arms when he reappears in a comment, and says things like

Funny, for a 'straight' male, David sure likes to check me out in the locker room. I don't know that Mr Four-Inches of Pleasure should really be criticising others about their shlong size. Didn't David's wife divorce him? Gosh - who's got the tiny knob now eh?

and

That's David's problem - he's a fucking ALCOHOLIC JUNKIE!! Hepatitis anyone?

Your silence is deafening. You claim that you fully supported Ed's removal, but you also fully supported his comments as they rolled out over the weeks.

And of course when Ed targets two people:

David, this comment is NOT directed at you, therefore there is NO need to respond... I suggest you go and belt one out with Damo if you're feeling tense honey.

Your response was more encouragement:

hi Alt_Ed,
belt one out? HAHAHahaha
no one can replicate you honey, they broke the mould with your sense of humour . .

I will not go on. I want to finish by saying that while no one expects that you should be complacent while under attack, I do believe you lose a bit of credibility when your main line of defense when you are shown your own shortcomings is that you defend yourself by saying you only fling back equal to what you were given:

look i treat people how they treat me and David treats me like shit,

m not going to censor myself when he certainly doesnt

This type of attitude is what I think has feathers ruffled. Because people would like to see you hold yourself to a higher standard given the level of disdain you have for David and his remarks. It is possible to defend yourself without lowering yourself.

And the implication that people who have decided to take a neutral stance or at worst an opposing stance to yours are somehow part of the problem with women reporting abuse is pretty offensive, given my own situation.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 8th 2009 20:09
hi Lola,

with regards to women reporting abuse, there are two major factors

1) fear of the perpetrator escalating the violence as a punishment for seeking help

2) fear of not being believed

statements like:

But maybe you should also ask yourself why he attacks you so viciously

are precisely the reason women dont seek help, there is a culture of putting the blame on yourself in the case of an unprovoked attack

i have no respect for David, i think hes a pig, and i dont care whether other people insult him or not, frankly im surprised that you think i should care, if you really did see this all unfold as it happened, as you claim

i do miss Alt-Ed, but i have never protested his removal as it was plain to see why he was removed, i never wrote any posts bleating on about having him reinstated and i never contacted Jon disputing the decision

at some point, around 9 months ago, i lost all respect for David due to his general homophobic comments, and do you know what i did?

i didnt hunt him down like a dog harassing him everyday on his blog or his friends blogs

i didnt write any posts about him on my own blog

i simply stopped visiting Potter In A Harry, i never left him another comment

and you know what, neither did anyone else . . . all you people sitting around wringing your hands at the injustice of it all and praising what a great writer he was, NONE OF YOU ever left him any comments, his blog was largely unread for a good 6-9 months

so he started spazzing out, and he started visiting my blog regularly to leave eye-catching comments and generate some interest in himself

but it didnt work, because all you people that claim he is such a marvellous wit and an asset to the network never gave a shit about him when he was actually writing

he would see my posts in the popular list and he would feel unappreciated because he considers his work to be more literary than mine, he thought it was an injustice, so he began feeding off me like a parasite for the sake of free publicity

David would also go to Alt_Eds blog and write vile things about homosexual people, its called baiting, and Alt_Ed responded with a similar level of maturity

David is very angry with me for never responding to his baiting, and he is very angry with himself for being attracted to me, he is incensed by the fact that i am Asexual and that i could not be lured by his "charm"

i dont know whose feathers i have supposedly ruffled, but its certainly not any of my 100 plus subscribers or any of my regular commenters

if someone asks me what i think of David im going to tell them, im not going to protect him out of some misplaced sense of "being the bigger person" because he doesnt deserve it

I watched the whole thing happen. It was a bit of tragic theater and I admittedly was somewhat fascinated with the manner in which things unraveled.

sorry but i dont believe you, i never see you comment anywhere, and i know for a fact noone was even hitting the vote button on Davids posts

you are aware of how many identities he has had, i take it?

Lady Henrietta Muddling
Ann1
Mistersmith
MrsSmith
MrandMrsAbnormal
Jimmy

have you actually been reading every comment on every post we've been on for the last 6 months, or did it ony become apparent in the last 3 weeks when he stepped it up a notch?

because i find it completely implausible that someone who wasnt receiving comment notifications could have taken in the scope and longevity of Davids fixation with me

all your quoted examples are from my How To Contact Orble Admin post which was only written on April 29th after David had been banned for the FORTH TIME and had returned as Anonymous

try THIS POST from Oct 20th 2008 as an example from the start of a slow burn that has only recently exploded into noticable flames

i know it is difficult to come in on the tail end of a dispute and understand right from wrong, but if i knew any other woman had been sexually harassed the way i have been on this network i would never have the gaul to suggest they were asking for it

i know what domestic violence is about, and i know what sexual assault is about, and you would never hear a rape crisis cousellor suggesting a victim should ask themselves why they were attacked

Comment by samaritan

May 8th 2009 23:06
Hi Ruby,

I did have a number of things to say here about whether the Virgin Mary is an accurate representation of women or just men's ideal, and whether that's a good and bad thing, and also about how I have felt betrayed by women who constantly look down on me for the choices I have made in order to stay home with my children, but it seems pretty irrelevant now.

I do, however, want to say this. You and I have had quite a few disagreements in the past about God, which is a big issue for both of us - you from the point of view of proving he doesn't exist and me from the point of view that he's central to my life. And we've always managed to do so in a friendly manner. The two times our disagreements have veered towards the 'unfriendly' have been when discussing David. Seems kind of stupid, when you think about it.

Anyway, I hope we do manage to continue our friendly disagreements in the future. Although I think maybe we should stick to the less controversial topics - like religion.

Samaritan

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 9th 2009 02:18
hi Samaritan,

I have felt betrayed by women who constantly look down on me for the choices I have made in order to stay home with my children

just one word of advice, when it comes to the sexual politics of Ruby and myself, you would do better to judge us on things we have actually said to you, and we have certainly never frowned upon your choice to be a homemaker and a mother, regardless of what some spiteful misogynists like to speculate our so-called "extremist feminist views" are

feminism is about choice, and i respect your choices, you can even choose to have David as your best friend, we wont stop you

but i think even with friends you have to acknowledge their faults, David has no respect for women, other than a very narrow idea of how he thinks a woman should act, speak, and live

you must see that, you are a highly intelligent person, you must see that he has complete disdain for all non-virgin-mary-archetype females, he has said multiple times that women who do not form partnerships with men are not "real women", or women that have abortions are not "real women", or women that wax their pubic hair are not "real women", David has no respect for choice, if you had made choices he did not agree with you would not have his candor

Comment by Natalina

May 9th 2009 02:28
Lola...chill out. I think I speak for everyone when I say that what happened to you is horrible. Just horrible. I am deeply sorry for the pain that has been caused to you from an awful excuse of a man. Not even a man. A coward.

But, can you not at least consider the fact, especially considering your history, that Morgan may be feeling something akin to what you felt? You know and I know that verbal abuse is painful too. I have read many of the comments lobbed at Morgan. I know that the fighting here on Orble has escalated on all fronts. But from woman to woman, I think it is critical not to tell a woman she is asking for it when her sexuality is used against her...in any manner.

Comment by RubySoho

May 9th 2009 02:35
Hi Samaritan,

Further to what Morgan just said, I want to reiterate that choice is the cornerstone of modern feminism. And that includes the choice to stay home with your kids. It's not all just about abortions and career choices. I would never look down on you for making that choice.

And yes, it would be silly for us to start getting angry with each other about David. He honestly is not worth it. I've just reached breaking point with my frustration.

Comment by samaritan

May 9th 2009 03:00
Hi Morgan,

Originally, I was going to write a couple of paragraphs about that type of betrayal, but when I saw the comments from you and Lola, I decided I'd cut it down to one sentence and get to the main point of what I wanted to say.

I certainly never meant to imply that you or Morgan have criticised me for the choices I have made. Rather, it was indicative of the types of ways women may feel betrayed by other women. Possibly, I should have just left it out altogether, because it's a big topic and hard to do justice to with only a few words. But what I would have said, if I kept with my original intention, was that I feel more put down as a female, by those kinds of comments that do look down on me for staying home with kids, then I do by any kind of female-bashing by men.

And I have stated in the past that David has faults. He can be extremely offensive and insulting. But I'm not going to call him a misogynist just because other people say he is. I haven't read any comments where David said women weren't 'real women' for any of the reasons you mention. I saw his comments about you being self-centred because you won't have a man and won't have kids. But that was obviously designed to insult you. And when people are deliberately insulting other people, the things they say may not be a true reflection of how they really think.

Also, not everything that people say is serious. One of my best friends says all kinds of things that could be considered racist or homophobic or sexist. He just likes to say the most offensive things possible in order to shock people. It doesn't mean that's the way he really thinks about these matters.

Samaritan

Comment by samaritan

May 9th 2009 03:15
Oh, and just one other thing. Thank you Morgan and Ruby for both saying you would not look down on a woman who stayed at home to look after children. Unfortunately, many women do. It's nice to know you are not in that category.

Samaritan

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 9th 2009 05:21
hi Natalina,

But from woman to woman, I think it is critical not to tell a woman she is asking for it when her sexuality is used against her...in any manner.

i couldnt agree more!
thanks for stopping in




hi Ruby,

David is totally not worth it, yet somehow i feel obliged to clear up some of the speculation he was spouting abuse my personal life and relationships and values and character . . . hes like a tornado of deceit, spreading more gossip than a sewing circle




hi Samaritan,

if you arent going to accept anything that David says that is designed to be insulting then you probably wont find anything, but thats the thing about misogyny, it can only really be established through ones actions and words as it is a behavioural trait

a misogynist as classified as such when their words are designed to convey disgust at all women, or certain groups or types of women, based on gender attributes eg: body parts, body functions, mannerisms, habits, roles, abilities etc unique to being female

how do we know a racist other than their generalising, stereotyping, barbs, and slurs?

i cannot look into anyones brain and determine what percentage of what they say is what they genuinely feel, but i can recognise when people sweep across whole groups with the same broad brush

ie: childless women are selfish, argumentative women are menstruating, sexually inactive women need a good fuck to be normal

this is a form of misogyny, not overt blanket hatred of the entire sex, but prejudice against women who do not fall into one or more acceptable categories

on Whitney's blog he expressed clear distaste for "modern" waxed women, saying they are disgusting and dangerous and not "real"

Teresa has a great fanny with pubic hair. She's natural and real.

also you are probably not going to find any comments from David on Orble in recent times that do not make reference to me in some way, which may lead you to dismiss the antics as personal, but please note he has displayed time and time again that he is prejudiced against the type of woman i am (as opposed to my personal positions) which is a form of misogyny

i know you would have seen references to my Asexuality and my "sterile womb" and my "prick teasing" as he has even done it on your blog

if you cant see the misogyny in these kind of statements you are either not looking with a critical eye or you are not aware of what misogyny is

Comment by D. Armenta

May 10th 2009 23:29
Hi Morgan-

Well, looks like quite a storm while I was gone. I've caught up on all the comments here and on my post, and I have to say the subject of David seems to ruffle as many feathers as the subject of abortion does around here. Seems odd..many other people have been here who leave/left nasty comments on others' posts repeatedly before. Why all this fuss about one particular person?

It seems out of proportion. It makes me wonder what set it off. What started it all? It's true that I wasn't here for that whole scenario described by you; last time I was here you, Ruby and Cheryl J. and David were all flirting in a friendly way with one another .

I'm curious as to how all of this escalated to what it is now. What was the catalyst?

Is this it?
David is very angry with me for never responding to his baiting, and he is very angry with himself for being attracted to me, he is incensed by the fact that i am Asexual and that i could not be lured by his "charm
"

Help me out, please. I hate to make assumptions, especially when I wasn't here.

It's a big mistake, making assumptions about peoples' beliefs/meanings/etc.; I try not to do it, myself.

Comment by D. Armenta

May 10th 2009 23:51
I just read the post you mentioned before, the start of the "slow burn"..I don't see anything offensive. Did you delete something? All I saw was David presenting quotes from what I assume is the Douay bible in debate with the statements made by the subjects of your post (nuns).

Also, I thought you said here earlier he was also Mister/Mrs. Smith? Those weren't offensive comments either, in the empirical sense.

Am I missing something?

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 10th 2009 23:57
hi D,

from what i can gather from Davids rantings, he is purposely being annoying so he can "expose Morgan as a fraud", his main gripes being that i am too nice and he considers the topics i write on the be too fluffy and/or too PC . . . he seems to think if he tells everyone im "fake" that my three posts a week will suddenly not make it to the popular list and all balance and happiness will be restored to the Orble network . . . he will dust off his crown and be reappointed to "most loved person on Orble" (was he ever?)

that may seem like a melodramatic interpretation, but it seems to be dream of the older users . . . if i were gone suddenly Orble writers would be free to publish poetry and prose and flourish creatively . . . apparently i am preventing all this by taking up on spot on the popular list a couple of days a week

all i see is a whole bunch of users too lazy to support each other with comments, but dont mind giving tacit support to Davids harassment of me because it is easier to sabotage the competition than step up the quality of their own content


CLICKHERE for a post by Lilla
if you want to play catch-up

Comment by RubySoho

May 11th 2009 00:11
I have never flirted with David. Sorry, but I saw through that one from the beginning.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 11th 2009 00:17
hi D,

the post i linked Lola to (Catholic Nuns) was to show how long David and i have been locking horns. ie: alot longer than 3 weeks

im not claiming his comments were "offensive" at that time, simply that it was the beginning of him getting annoyed with me and between that time and now his comments have become gradually more hostile, what started as a terse "get your facts right" deteriorated into "Jon needs to give Morgan a good fuck to stop her being such an Asexual cunt" (i paraphrase, see above for exact quote)

Mistersmith was orignally a user called Teresa Ralton, i dont know what actually happened to Teresa, perhaps she is bound and gagged in her basement while David squats in her house, but around April 16, 2009 David took over the account

CLICKHERE for Davids first post as Mistersmith after he was banned from Lady Henrietta Muddling

Comment by D. Armenta

May 11th 2009 00:36
I've read Lilla's post. Tell me your impression of what Lilla is trying to say, if you don't mind, please.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 11th 2009 01:12
hi D,

Lilla's post was originally a comment on a post of Janets, both i and Cheryl answered her there and she moved it to her own post rather than respond to either of us

what i originally said:

hi Lilla,


I think Orble admin is foolish to let it go on and on wihtout givin Morgan her Block orbler Button because sadly, I can see that she will not cease the tantrums until she gets her way.


i dont really think one post on the Writers Forum over six months ago could really be defined as a series of tantrums

and i have seen you request a block button yourself so i dont know why you are trying to insinuate i would be the sole beneficiary of such a measure . . . another person who has requested the function is Cheryl

and this is what Cheryl said:

I have, by far, been the most vocal and pushed the hardest for a 'block user' or 'report abuse' button as I'm sure Jon would attest to if he ever actually responded to anything. I have put in more complaints than I can count regarding posts and comments where I feel anyone is being mistreated.

I read the comment made before it was withdrawn regarding Morgan's 'tantrums' on the subject. I thought that was tasteless and uncalled for. Morgan happened to write a post (which I was in the midst of writing myself at the time but she beat to the punch) regarding rules on Orble. I don't think the post in question was in any way a tantrum as many of the respondents agreed it was a good idea.

Do I like Morgan? Yes. Do I agree with everything she writes? No. Do I think she has been subjected to cyberbullying? Yes. Before you jump on your high horses and say she is guilty of the same, for the last few weeks almost every blog I have clicked on and read that she had made a comment on, David had followed her and subjected her to a barrage of personal abuse that had nothing to do with the subject at hand. I don't think that anyone deserves that.

Alt-ed was just as bad, doing the same to other people. It is not right, nor is it adult behaviour. It has been said that adults should be able to self-monitor, well in a perfect that would be the case. This is obviously far from a perfect world.

I have watched a site that I used to enjoy participating in degenerate into something, that if I were a casual surfer who happened upon the site, would avoid like the plague.

I have never wanted to enter into any form of personal warfare on this site. I have no problem with people voicing differing opinions. This is something altogether different.

I have been weighing up in the last couple of weeks whether to continue participating at all on Orble and this has just made up my mind for me. Nothing will change.

I'm sure 99% of you couldn't give a damn if I blog here or not and that is fine. I enjoyed my small readership and engaging with others but I don't enjoy it anymore. I will be blogging on a site which takes abuse seriously and has measures already in place to deal with it. Yes it has 'report abuse' buttons which was one of the first questions I asked when I joined. They seemed quite bewildered that I had asked as it is the norm everywhere else.

Janet, it has always been a pleasure to read your posts.

what was Lilla trying to say? i think shes trying to say that i am the blame for unpleasantness on Orble because i wont just lie down and take it from David

Comment by D. Armenta

May 12th 2009 23:33
Now see, I got a whole different take on that. What I got was Lilla deploring the censorship that's being called for on Orble; I did see "Morgan's tantrums" there, and that's unfortunate..but "Morgan's tantrums" are not the gist of the post. Censorship is.

I also saw a very defensive and premature reaction from Ruby. Now, in the interest of us all getting along better here, I submit that a lot of us are maybe a bit too defensive and ready to read an insult into anything and everything. If you were being honest with yourself, would you have construed the comment David left me (mentioned above) as "playful" if it were directed at you? I didn't know David at that time. I was new. I chose to make it playful and responded in kind.

Don't want to get into another rehash/cut-and-paste of every nasty thing David has written to you; that's been covered, and that's between you. What I'm interested in here is maybe better communication between all of us, so we don't have to start dragging admin into it with censorship.

We're adults here. If you or I or anyone else feels that someone is taking a nasty tone, how about asking them straight out if that was the intent? How about verifying that and responding on our own instead of trying to get a "higher authority" to establish what is acceptable and what is not? Or jumping to the conclusion that we're being attacked when that may not be the case? It's hard to read meaning and emotion into print sometimes.

Censorship is a bad idea; it sets a terrible precedent. Lilla was bemoaning the fact that "back in the old days" no one was trying to get rules made; we fought and argued and traded insults. Some of us were stalked. We handled it ourselves, because we're all adults here. The fact that you or Ruby or Alt/Ed may be younger has nothing to do with it. Age has nothing to do with it--maturity does. Ahmed wasn't even 21 when he was blogging here, and he got (and gave) some pretty ugly exchanges with no intervention from admin. Another writer (now gone) was in his 40s but had a tantrum about an imagined slight and stormed out.

Age has nothing to do with level of maturity, I find.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 13th 2009 08:48
hi D,

it doesnt make any sense to me to say well, apart from the offensive parts of what so-and-so was saying can you point to anything offensive?

i have never told Jon to ban David, if you have a problem with Jon's methods then take it up with Jon

re: Lilla's post, i find it quite extraordinary coming from someone who has also said this:

Hi Jon,

I would just like to offer my support for Moragns suggestion of :

1) a "report abuse" button on all posts

2) a "block user" button to prevent unwanted contact from trolls and bullies etc who have Orble accounts

I have never complained before, although I probably could as I am not a stranger to having a couple of hecklers visit me regularly. They are purile and childish and offer nothing constructive in their comments, sometimes not even related to the post. They dont even have an opinion that could make me say it is a clash of opinions ... it is pure personal attack from the outset because of my post just being there and what it is : me being who I am?

There is nothing to be gained through trying a rational conversation or debate as one does with normal mature adults with such people.

Their only mission it seems is to ruin my day with their vitriolic bile. Now whilst I can avoid visiting them, I cannot avoid them upsetting me, because the words are read before the delete can be clicked on.

I would therefore strongly advocate that a *BLOCK USER* button be added to the list. Please. This would certainly make my blogging experience more enjoyable.

I do believe that nothing would get the message home quicker to such people, and sort this whole problem than the instigation of these two buttons. It would serve orble well for these people to find that they are unwelcome and can no longer roam around like emotional hitmen and women, heckling normal rational people just trying to have some interaction on their ideas and thoughts.

Lilla ...

Really Long Link

and this:

Hi Jon,
>
> I must speak freely and let you know that I am grossly offended by the photo of an orbler Alt_ed has posted with perveted graphics of phallic symbols added to it : paying out another orbler, David.
>
> I know David can be an arrogant, rude, opinionated rant at times, as can Alt_ed, but allowing this persecution against one orbler by another, when you have previously deleted David's less offensive posts, wreaks of injustice. Not to mention David*s rights here with a lawsuit of plagerism and defemation of character, not that I care if he sues Ed or not, its just that it could set a precendence that damages orble in the end, no one else.
>
> You must realise that neither of these two are reasonable souls where homosexduality is concerned?
>
> Its not really even that, its just that I doubt you would let others post such pictures of a heterosexual nature of fellatio so openly as to make the top 10, and not for an entire day! Indeed I have seen many times when you have deleted just such. Another thing that angers me is that there is no mature content offered here to stop young people from viewing such perverted smut.
>
> I think it is a sad day for orble if this kind of picture and biblical perversion is going to be tolerated. I do not think I will be the only one offended either in the long run and hope you choose to stop both sides with the same law. This will send a clear message to others to take their wars off orble to the privacy of a PM punch up.
>
> How horrible to log on this morning to have that shoved in my face!
>
> Thanks for hearing me out.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Lilla ..

Really Long Link

you can talk about free speech and censorship all you like, but if you only mean it to apply to one person then it is meaningless

i have not dragged Admin into anything, David drags them in when he goes around saying Jon doesnt have a cock but if he did he should fuck me with it . . . it is Jon's network, is it really any wonder he doesnt want those kind of remarks published?

i know the difference between being attacked and being playful, there has been nothing good natured of "cheeky" about anything David has said to me lately, ive already acknowledged the comment he addressed to you was playful, the kind of comment David would send to me would go more like this:

You are a frigid pricktease for not giving me a blow job before speaking to me, not that i would fuck you with my worst mates dick, even though you need a good fuck, you need the Asexuality fucked out of you. You disgust me you vile childless abomination. You are the devil and im going to expose you for the poisonous fraud you really are. *

* note: not an exact quote, just an example made from a mash-up of other quotes

im not jumping to conclusions with David, i understand his meaning precisely as he has expressed the same hateful sentiments over and over again

i know some people around here like how he wards off new writers because they like the network being insular, and i know some people think hes some kind of a faultless martyr, a second coming of Jesus . . . but even if Jesus himself came to my blog and said some of the stuff David has said about me, i would call him out on his misogyny, sexual harassment, and bullying

Comment by RubySoho

May 13th 2009 11:29
D,

in light of the fact that you are rarely on Orble these days, and would have missed most of the lead up to these recent events, I think it's a big call to render my comments premature or defensive.

Lilla's biggest gripe is that Morgan and I blog about atheism and homosexuality and women's rights. Apparently that prevents all you older users from expressing yourselves creatively as you have in the past. How? Beats me. Ask Lilla.

I also think it is nothing short of insulting and either incredibly naive or deliberately false to claim that David's comment to you, which none of us construe as anything other than playful, is even in the same ball park as the relentless attack he has launched against Morgan in recent times.

He has called her a cunt, the devil, satan, an abomination, poison and vile. He has told her he wished someone would fuck her against her will, that 'her kind' are not welcome on Orble because "not everyone wants a queer friendly site". He has said that Morgan and I must have "hooked noses" because we are compulsive liars. Yeah, he just thought he would throw in a little anti-semitism into the mix.

I am stunned and amazed that you, of all the women on here, would continue to defend him. I know that some of them are for some reason I will never fathom, quite taken with him and fancy themselves as the future Mrs David, the special woman who would finally tame the wild beast. But you? I have read your comments here over and over and still I don't believe it.

How on earth can a comment like "How self centered is this woman? She won't have kids. She won't be with a man", NOT be construed a misogynistic? Are women's sole purpose in life to submit to the almighty penis and open up their wombs for insemination? Because you know, defining women's roles in such narrow terms is the essence of misogyny.


Comment by RubySoho

May 13th 2009 11:34
p.s i can't speak for anyone else but i have never complained to admin about anything and I resent the implication that I have. Not to mention the unwarranted attacks on my maturity.
Personally, I think David's comments should be left on here. So everyone can see him for the sexist, racist, homophobic jerk that he is.

Then again, if you can't see that already, it's probably because you just don't want to.


Comment by Morgan Bell

May 13th 2009 11:41
hi Ruby,
i have never deleted any comments from David on my blog, but Jon has . . . i set myself to Verify because i am tired of his personal attacks, they dont add anything to the discussion, they just insult me and my readers, and he is clearly just looking for attention . . . i have no idea why other women find misogyny so charming

Comment by samaritan

May 13th 2009 13:19
Morgan and Ruby,

You seem to be creating all sorts of reasons as to why anyone would want to defend David. It doesn't seem to have occurred to you that maybe some people defend David for the simple reason that they think he has been treated unfairly. Can you at least consider the possibility that some people may have an opinion about him that is different to your own? Or does the fact that someone disagrees with you automatically mean they must have some bizarre reason for doing so?

Samaritan

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 13th 2009 13:25
hi Samaritan,

unfairly treated by who?


Comment by RubySoho

May 13th 2009 14:22
Samaritan,

Sorry, should we all be a little kinder to racist, sexist homophobes? Should Jon have been a little more accepting of someone who routinely called him a cunt and a cock and a dick and repeatedly told him to fuck Morgan?

And yes, I find that anyone could who defend David at this point must have some bizarre reason for doing so. Including yourself considering all the vile comments he left on your post. Comments which you refused to moderate by the way. How long were you going to let him go on like that? Would you have said something if Jon hadn't stepped in to do your job and actually moderated your blog for you? And the more you defend him considering all the evidence that is still up on your post, the less respect I have for you. Now my respect may not matter to you and that's quite okay. But I think now is as good a time to tell you that I will never take seriously anything you say every again.

But as for me inventing reason as to why these women keep sticking up for poor persecuted David, I think Teresa made it pretty clear why she defends him. Something about her hairy fanny, golden showers and menstrual blood if I recall correctly.

I couldn't possibly make up anything that bizarre.


Comment by Anonymous

May 13th 2009 16:06
Hello Morgan.

I think you need to reread my last, without skimming this time.

I'll reiterate the salient points, just in case:

We all need to LIGHTEN UP.

We all need to GROW UP.

We all need to handle our own battles instead of demanding that someone else set standards for us.
We all have different sets of standards, which is why we must make and enforce our own.

D. Armenta

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 13th 2009 16:18
hi D,

i did read your last comment, i didnt skim it

im not going to lighten up about being spoken to in a sexually hostile way, and im not going to change anything about myself to make others feel more comfortable

i have set my own standards here, even in the face of a barrage of criticism for Verifying comments

it just seems to me that the same people who dont want Admin intervention, and dont want others complaining, also seem to be the people that complain the most, threaten law suits, and mock individual bloggers for moderating their own blogs

Comment by Anonymous

May 13th 2009 17:09
Well, Morgan..I'm done playing "Yes, but--" ; gets boring real fast.

Just a little friendly advice: Samaritan is newer than you and she was welcomed. James R. is newer than you--welcomed. I can keep on going, but you get the idea.

Others have written posts just as controversial, more controversial than yours and were welcomed.

Ever think that it just might be something to do with how they interact/react with others here? You might not realize it, but you tend to come off as having a chip on your shoulder. Sort of waiting for the next attack, you know? (And that's NOT just since David and you fell out either.)

"Now, you can continue as you have with your nose in the air and your elbows stuck out and call it independence.." (That's a literary quote-recognise it?)but don't be surprised when others here have a negative reaction to you.

That's just human nature, Morgan.

Good luck to you.

D. Armenta

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 13th 2009 17:33
hi D,

i find it quite amusing that you would try to imply i dont get along with people here

ive been welcomed by practically everyone here, i have never claimed otherwise

it is the very fact that i do get along with people so well that had David so enraged

i dont really care if you think i have a chip on my shoulder, or if Lilla thinks im "throwing tantrums" when she suggests the exact same measures i do

the only negative people are the ones who barely use the site anymore and only pop their heads back in when they feel like agitating arguments

my regular readers and subscribers are always supportive and have very positive reactions to me

but thanks for your concern

lets just finish with another David quote, since he is the all-knowing infallible dreamboat that he is:


The Beatles claimed they were more popular than Jesus. Morgan is more popular than God. On here.


Comment by samaritan

May 13th 2009 21:52
Morgan,

You dug deep to find that comment. Tell me, did you read all the lengthy posts about religion on my Doubting Thomas post? Or did you just skim through them to see if David was saying anything about you?

Ruby,

As for my bizarre reasons, here are some of them:

1. I don't like double standards. It annoys me that there seems to be one set of rules when David is discussing people and another set of rules when David is being discussed.

2. I don't like being told I can't like someone - or that if I defend someone, you'll lose respect for me. What's next? You won't let me play with you at recess either. It bugged me in primary school and it bugs me now.

3. I believe in freedom of speech - and not just the kind of freedom of speech that says you can say whatever you want, as long as it fits our ideas of what it's okay to say.

4. I don't think we need to get rid of all the 'politically incorrect' people in the world. My grandmother's a racist. My dad's a sexist. One of my friends is homophobic. Just because I don't agree with their views doesn't mean I need to treat them like a leper.

As for not deleting comments from my blog, Morgan said on this very post that she didn't delete David's comments, but that Jon did. So it's okay for her to leave them, but not okay for me. And you yourself said you thought David's comments should be left. Did I mention I don't like double standards?

Samaritan

Comment by Anonymous

May 14th 2009 02:59
Hello Morgan--

See what I mean about having a chip? Read your last answer. I haven't attacked you, nor have I insulted you.

This:
that may seem like a melodramatic interpretation, but it seems to be dream of the older users . . . if i were gone suddenly Orble writers would be free to publish poetry and prose and flourish creatively . . . apparently i am preventing all this by taking up on spot on the popular list a couple of days a week

and this:
i have no idea why other women find misogyny so charming

this:
i know some people around here like how he wards off new writers because they like the network being insular

this:
the only negative people are the ones who barely use the site anymore and only pop their heads back in when they feel like agitating arguments

this:
I know for some of you, reading words, and making up the message to suit is part in parcel with your daily life, however, don't crucify me for saying the truth.

..all of these comments of yours come off sounding like a bratty prepubescent having a ..well, a tantrum. Why go on the attack all the time, especially when others (in this case, me) aren't attacking you? You keep mentioning some mysterious group of "older"writers here who (in your estimation) apparently resent your "popularity".

Horsecrap!

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Seriously, Morgan..you're really coming off as a self-absorbed, condescending, immature person when you make unprovoked salvos like the above. That tends to undermine anything serious you have to say, okay?

As an impartial observer, I'm telling you this honestly. Sans insult, sans innuendo. To quote yourself back to you, "don't crucify me for saying the truth".

I've read and enjoyed a lot of your posts prior to this. I've nothing against you personally, but I think you're obscuring your talents as a writer with all of this juvenile behavior.

Just sayin'...

Now, please forgive me for so much off-topic discussion on your post. I've said my piece, and judging by your replies so far I can pretty much predict your response.

It's a damn' shame. You are compromising your potential, but that's your gig. I'm done.

D. Armenta


D. Armenta

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 14th 2009 05:33
hi Samaritan,

i have always been an avid reader of your posts, i read each post and the following comments in their entirety, i used to regularly comment until quite recently, but i still do like to read

however, you did not answer my question:

hi Samaritan,

unfairly treated by who?




hi D,

first of all, the following comment was written by Mau Meddlin, not me:

I know for some of you, reading words, and making up the message to suit is part in parcel with your daily life, however, don't crucify me for saying the truth.

so i dont really think that statement can be used as an example of how i conduct myself when it cant even be attributed to me

secondly, i will happily concede i am self-absorbed

thirdly, if you dont like being spoken to in a snide or condescending way perhaps you should reconsider your own choice of words and pick out phrases that are less snide and condescending when addressing others

when saying someone is boring, unpopular, unwelcome, has a chip on their should, is waiting for the next attack, has their nose in the air, and causes negative reactions, dont be surprised if these comments could be construed as something designed to be insulting

if you want to attack me thats fine, go right ahead, but at least acknowledge thats what you are doing and dont act all wounded when i respond with a similar amount of respect to what you have shown me

my potential and talent have not been undermined by Davids antics, they have flourished, my subscribers have doubled since he started waging this absurd vendetta against me, and i have been invited to participate in several other media gigs by fellow Orblers

what you see as "juvenile" i see as assertive, im not going to be bullied off this site, and im not going to stop saying what i think, although i do note that the "free speech" parade is never there supporting people responding to attacks, they only fly their banner for the attacker

Comment by RubySoho

May 14th 2009 06:26
Samaritan,

1. I don't like double standards. It annoys me that there seems to be one set of rules when David is discussing people and another set of rules when David is being discussed.

There is no double standard. When I discuss David, I only discuss the comments he himself leaves on Orble. I do not make assumptions about his personal life nor do i make judgements about his life choices. If David were to do the same, then I daresay we would not be in the situation we find ourselves in. I don't call David homophobic or sexist as a baseless insult. They are observations based on his own comments.That is the difference but you won't admit that. But by all means, if you find any comments when I have ridiculed David for his sex or race or religion or sexual orientation, then please bring them to my attention.

2. I don't like being told I can't like someone - or that if I defend someone, you'll lose respect for me. What's next? You won't let me play with you at recess either. It bugged me in primary school and it bugs me now.

I'm not annoyed because you like David, nor am I saying that you can't. What I have a problem with is the fact that you will not admit what it is that you like. Just say, I know David is homophobic but I like him anyway. I know David is sexist but I like him anyway. I know David is racist but I like him anyway. But you don't. Instead you and his legion of female followers insist that he is none of the above. Which pretty amounts to redefining the meaning of all those terms. Do you even know what misogyny is? Because honestly, it does not seem like it.

3. I believe in freedom of speech - and not just the kind of freedom of speech that says you can say whatever you want, as long as it fits our ideas of what it's okay to say.

Good for you. Doesn't mean I have to agree with or like what is said though do I? And if i don't like it, I will say so.

4. I don't think we need to get rid of all the 'politically incorrect' people in the world. My grandmother's a racist. My dad's a sexist. One of my friends is homophobic.

And David is all three! Woohoo!!! Trifecta! But don't confuse political correctness with hate speech please.

As for not deleting comments from my blog, Morgan said on this very post that she didn't delete David's comments, but that Jon did. So it's okay for her to leave them, but not okay for me. And you yourself said you thought David's comments should be left. Did I mention I don't like double standards?

Smug much? When I said you failed to moderate your blog it wasn't to tell you you should have deleted his comments. A simple, please don't talk to my fellow readers that way. Iit is way out of line and while you are at it, please don't make anti-semitic remarks here either, would have sufficed. But instead you let him ramble on and on and on.


Comment by Morgan Bell

May 14th 2009 06:39
hi Ruby,

And David is all three! Woohoo!!! Trifecta! But don't confuse political correctness with hate speech please.

Trifecta! haha

Comment by samaritan

May 14th 2009 09:49
Morgan,

The reason I deliberaly did not expand on David's 'unfair treatment' was because I knew you would focus on addressing that, and I thought it had pretty much been covered already. Instead I wanted you to focus on the question I was asking you.

Can you at least consider the possibility that some people may have an opinion about him that is different to your own?

And I still have not gotten an answer to that question.


Ruby,

You're missing the point. I didn't mention my reasons to try and convince you that they were good reasons or right reasons. And I certainly didn't list them to criticise you personally. I simply listed them to tell you what some of my reasons are. Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. I know you have a different opinion to me on the matter - and I am quite fine with that.

What I do have a problem with is that I apparently am not allowed to have a different opinion to you. According to you, I have lost your respect, I have made you feel betrayed as a woman and you will not take anything I say seriously again. Why? Because I think differently than you do about David and about moderating blogs.

Samaritan

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 14th 2009 10:21
hi Samaritan.

just to recap, i previously said this:

feminism is about choice, and i respect your choices, you can even choose to have David as your best friend, we wont stop you

but i think even with friends you have to acknowledge their faults, David has no respect for women, other than a very narrow idea of how he thinks a woman should act, speak, and live

you responded with this:

And I have stated in the past that David has faults. He can be extremely offensive and insulting. But I'm not going to call him a misogynist just because other people say he is. I haven't read any comments where David said women weren't 'real women' for any of the reasons you mention. I saw his comments about you being self-centred because you won't have a man and won't have kids. But that was obviously designed to insult you. And when people are deliberately insulting other people, the things they say may not be a true reflection of how they really think.

i gave you a clear definition of what misogyny is and provided examples of where he had made misogynistic statements

you dont have to agree with me but dont give me that cop out of "oh he was only joking" or "oh he was only angry" or "oh he didnt really mean it", because i find those excuses unacceptable

i also think "well ive never seen him say that" and "well it wasnt directed at me" are a cop out, ive put it right in front of your face on this post you just have to open your eyes

i think one of a few things may be happening:

1) you know his statements are misogynistic but you dont want to admit it because you think he is otherwise a nice person, or at least nice to you and thats all you care about, and you are providing him with unconditional support and encouragement devoid of any objective reasoning

2) you dont agree with my definition of misogyny, and if so i would like to know how you define it

3) you dont think the examples cited mesh with my definition of misogyny, and if so i would like to know how

if you have a different opinion on the meaning of the quotes cited or a different definition of misogyny by all means put it forward

but you can not deny what his has said, or sweep it under the rug, that is not an opinion, it is a denial of fact

so theres your answer, maybe you could reciprocate:

unfairly treated by who?

Comment by samaritan

May 14th 2009 11:28
Morgan,

I define misogyny as a hatred of all women. So no, I do not believe David is a misogynist.

Has he expressed disgust at certain types of women? Yes. But then, you and Ruby have expressed disgust at the types of women who would defend someone you consider to be a misogynist.

Not that I really see what this has to do with anything. For a start, the main issue for me at the moment has more to do with double standards and people not being free to express a differing opinion than it does actually about David.

Secondly, everybody has faults. We don't need to go around stating them all the time. What purpose does that serve? One of my very good friends is friends with someone I don't particularly like too much. I don't feel the need to say 'Well you can be his friend as long as you admit his faults.' That would be pointless.

And to answer your question, I believe that David has been unfairly treated by anyone who applies one set of standards to him and another set to themselves and their friends. So yes, Morgan, to answer your next question, I do believe you have treated him unfairly. I don't blame you for getting angry with him or disliking him or insulting him. But when you complain about all the insults he has directed at you, while at the same time continuing to insult him, it seems unfair.

Samaritan



Comment by RubySoho

May 14th 2009 12:02
For the last time there are no double standards! No one else has made the sorts of comments here that David has made. The only person who has come close is Alt_ed and HE WAS BANNED TOO!!


Calling someone out on their own prejudices is not the same things as ridiculing someone for their sexuality or their race or the fact that they are a woman who doesn't comply with his own standards of what a woman should be. And yes, that is misogyny- whether you want it to be or not.






Comment by Morgan Bell

May 14th 2009 12:08
hi Samaritan,

how are you not free to express an opposing opinion? i have published all of your opposing opinions on this post, you have been free to say whatever you like, and you have

he has been free to insult me, and i am free to give my opinion on his statements about me, just as you are

the purpose of stating his misogynist remarks is to analyse and rebut them

how is it unfair for me to respond to his allegations?

and no i dont agree with your definition of misogyny, i think you need to brush up on your feminist theory, because i dont think you understand it

But then, you and Ruby have expressed disgust at the types of women who would defend someone you consider to be a misogynist.

no i think we have expressed frustration at individual women who refuse to acknowledge that an individual man of our general acquaintance is a misogynist

"women who think David can do no wrong" is not really a significant group based on a lifestyle choice or physical function/trait, as opposed to "women who are unmarried" or "women who are childless"

what am i doing in particular that you think is unfair?

if it is my comments on this post i think you should note i never wrote a post about him, i am responding to questions that you guys are asking me

i know you have seen his continued comments towards me on Natalina's Gay Marriage post today, so lets not pretend hes not still around still baiting me right now . . . if he addresses me directly i am going to respond . . . if someone else addresses me directly asking about him i am going to respond

unfair? i dont think so


Comment by Mau-Medellin

May 14th 2009 13:19
Hello Anonymous D. Ementia,

I have quoted part of your above comment here, as there is a gross factual error; and I also take offence to your insinuation that I am throwing tantrums!

Hello Morgan--

See what I mean about having a chip? Read your last answer. I haven't attacked you, nor have I insulted you.

This:
that may seem like a melodramatic interpretation, but it seems to be dream of the older users . . . if i were gone suddenly Orble writers would be free to publish poetry and prose and flourish creatively . . . apparently i am preventing all this by taking up on spot on the popular list a couple of days a week

and this:
i have no idea why other women find misogyny so charming

this:
i know some people around here like how he wards off new writers because they like the network being insular

this:
the only negative people are the ones who barely use the site anymore and only pop their heads back in when they feel like agitating arguments

this:
I know for some of you, reading words, and making up the message to suit is part in parcel with your daily life, however, don't crucify me for saying the truth.

..all of these comments of yours come off sounding like a bratty prepubescent having a ..well, a tantrum.

The section underlined, is text originally posted in a comment by myself; NOT Morgan Bell. Please do not lie and make false statements about who said what. That is not very nice.

Mau-Medellin.

Comment by Morgan Bell

May 14th 2009 16:10
hey Samaritan, i was just reading an interesting article on Christian misogynists you might be interested in

Christian Men Who Hate Women:
Healing Hurting Relationships
Margaret J. Rinck
Zondervan Publishing House, 1990


CLICKHERE for excerpts @ Sunshine For Women


1. The man assumes that it is his "God-given right" to control how his wife lives and behaves. Her needs, thoughts, feelings are not considered.

2. He uses God, the Bible, and church teachings to support his right to "tell her what to do," and demands that she "submit" to his desires, whims, decisions, or plans without question. There is no sense of mutuality or loving consideration. It's always his way, or no way.

3. He believes that a woman's beliefs, opinions, views, feelings, and thoughts are of no real value. He may discredit her opinions in general or specifically because she is a "daughter of Eve and easily deceived." Therefore, her opinions are of little consequence.
...

7. The husband remains blind to any fault or cruelty on his part. When anything goes wrong in the home or in the marital relationship, the problem is always the woman. If she would just be "more submissive" or "be filled with the Spirit" or "obey me like a good Christian wife," everything would be fine. He actually sees himself as virtuous for "putting up" with a woman like her. On the other hand, he can become unreasonably jealous if other people, particularly men, pay too much attention to his wife.
...

Type 1 Misogynist (Mild):

No physical abuse of his partner. He uses indirect criticism; denies that he is abusive, protestations of love when confronted with his disrespectful behavior; extremely subtle, may use flattery to keep woman at his side. Uses logic to control situations. Outargues spouse, totally discounts woman's feelings and thoughts. He rarely loses his temper. He always looks as if he is in control, very reasonable. Out of touch with his own feelings.

Type II Misogynist:

Includes Type I behaviors plus more overt verbal tactics such as teasing, bullying, belittling, namecalling, obvious criticism, unfavorable comparison of partner with other woman. Uses nonverbal tactics such as pouting, the "silent treatment," dirty looks to show displeasure. May demand special attention. May be jealous of wife's attention to children or other relatives. May use temper tantrums to get his own way. Increase in intensity and frequency of behaviors over Type I.

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