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Deep Pencil - the musings of Morgan Bell

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it did it really make a sound? If i post a blog and nobody reads it was there really any point? You have entered the random thinking space of Morgan Bell . . . These are my musings . . . things about my life written off the top of my head . . . written in an informal disjointed style almost completely devoid of punctuation, this is where i flesh out writing ideas, discuss my life, and generally be self indulgent . . . it is also the bargain bin for articles which do not fit in with the film or arts themes of my other blogs . . . so have a wander around my mind, have a laugh, have a think, be nice, and humour me!

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the Rule of Nazi Analogies and Reductio Ad Hitlerum

July 27th 2008 16:25

i came across an interesting term about internet forum arguments called Godwin's Law which says the longer an internet discussion goes on the more likely it is that someone will eventually invoke the Nazi argument

apparently you can tell when a internet discussion is getting old when one of the participants drags out Hitler and the Nazis . . . this also applies to Nazi-related terms like "book-burning", "gas-chamber" and "eugenics"

bringing up the Nazi's in an attempt to win an unrelated argument is considered "flaming" and an ineffective debating technique because as soon as the Nazi comparison is made the thread deteriorates and the person who has raised it ultimately loses the argument

"playing the Nazi card" was labelled Reductio Ad Hitlerum in 1950 by Leo Strauss . . . it is basically an argument tactic intended to add emotional weight to the discussion by trying to state that anything (or anyone) that Hitler or the Nazi's used or supported must be inherantly evil, and anything they opposed must be inherently good

when Mike Godwin was participating in discussions on an early internet chat site called UseNet in 1990 he devised his Rule of Nazi Analogies from what he observed was a common tactic amongst people in political debates

nice to know Godwin's Law is still going strong on Orble today!

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Comments

14 Comments. [ Add A Comment ]

Comment by RubySoho

July 28th 2008 08:33

Music Zone
Thought Zone

apparently you can tell when a internet discussion is getting old when one of the participants drags out Hitler and the Nazis . . .

Well some Orblers are ahead of the pack here since they often open their arguments with referneces to the old nazi.

this also applies to Nazi-related terms like "book-burning", "gas-chamber" and "eugenics"

not to mention the old old Nazi Superman/Overman analogy.

Reducto Ad Hitlerum, I love it.

Comment by Morgan Bell

July 28th 2008 09:37

Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train

hi Ruby,
i thought you might like that term!
yeah if you open with the Nazi argument you might aswell stop right there! haha
im sure i have been guilty of making a Nazi analogy from time to time, but apparently on the internet it is practically inevitable that someone will eventually resort to it out of desperation!

Comment by S.L.

July 28th 2008 16:53

The Political Brief

Probably true, Morgan. However there are some current issues that beg for the Nazi analogy. Abortion for example. It is as acceptable today to kill a "fetus" as it was in Nazi Germany to kill a "Jew." Holocaust is holocaust no matter what name you ascribe to the victim.

Comment by Morgan Bell

July 28th 2008 17:03

Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train

hi S.L.
yeah i said "Nazi" in the title of this post so it was doomed from the very beginning!
i think Strauss was saying any given argument would be stronger if you stayed on-topic and didnt have to resort to Nazi analogies at all

Comment by S.L.

July 28th 2008 17:13

The Political Brief

Sometimes the analogies are too obvious to ignore. How long did the rest of the world ignore what was happening in Nazi Germany? Public opinion finally became aroused and the reaction was impressive. It will happen again. Wait and see.

Comment by RubySoho

July 28th 2008 22:12

Music Zone
Thought Zone

Smart guy that Strauss.

Comment by SL is so Predictable

July 29th 2008 04:18

How did I know that SL would raise her ugly head in this argument. I think she just made your point for you beautifully Morgan!

Comment by S.L.

July 29th 2008 04:21

The Political Brief

Very slick, coward. Enjoy the insults behind the curtain. You should be ashamed to use your name. Oh, you ARE ashamed, surprise...

Comment by SL is so Predictable

July 29th 2008 08:03

Well I wouldn't want the Nazi's to get me SL.

I'm not hiding, I'm not a member of Orble just a recent reader. My name is Karen Lee. I'm not ashamed of what I said at all. I just find in all of the posts and responses I have read that you are very predictable and a little bit laughable.

However, I do really like your posts Ms Morgan Bell.

Comment by Morgan Bell

July 29th 2008 08:59

Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train

hi Karen Lee,
thanks for stopping in and having a read!
some conversations on Orble do get a bit circular!

Comment by Natalie 2

July 29th 2008 23:21

My Life My Muse
Beta Girl Blog

Great post, Morgan. It is the ultimate insult, and a room silencer when someone whips out the "Nazi" card. And, I have found, rarely deserved. Never knew there was a name for it!!

Comment by Morgan Bell

July 30th 2008 13:29

Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train

hi Natalie,
yeah i didnt realise there was an official name either, but once i read up on it, it was SO TRUE!
thanks for the comment!

Comment by Jose

August 23rd 2008 00:56

Orb of Insight
Political Writing

Hi Morgan,

Interesting post. As someone who's wasted way too much of his time on forums, I was familiar with Godwin's Law in a practical manner but not so much with its history. Sadly, it even appears in places not related to politics or current events or even history. Talking about Magic: the Gathering? Well, then anyone who doesn't like the same cards you do is like Hitler. Talking about Lego? Well, then anyone who doesn't like the Islander models is like Hitler. And you can't predict when someone's going to pull it out, either.